engler was doing up in michigan, what other reform-minded governors were doing across the country on health care reform, on welfare reform, the republicans, conservatives, controlled it. as i said to jim yesterday, there's been an anti-intellectual strain in this party for the past four, five, six years. it's now costing us millions of votes across the country. and millions and millions of dollars. and he seemed to get that as well. >> yeah. the good news is that the republicans have got them -- clearly have gotten the message, and they're moving faster than i ever thought they would. >> yeah. >> so i'm encouraged. >> they really are. i mean, i heard hannity right after the election started talking about immigration reform. >> immigration reform. >> krauthammer. >> you're seeing it there, on taxes, on opportunity. look, you may even see it one day on climate change. i think the debates are changing. >> this sounds so good, but then i read charles krauthammer. nothing but a power play. obama's objective in these negotiations is not economic but political. not to solve the debt cris
